A warning against 'The Paywall'

Well I for one would be willing pay money to avoid you.

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I’m not trying to backseat moderate or anything, but I want this to be a genuine discussion without memes or other irrelevant stuff clogging up the stuff. Its almost a big post as it is. just kindly asking. :hearts:

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Money does not work on AnComs. or so I have been told.
In all seriousness tho, it’ll keep people like Rain out, so that’d already be a reason for me to get it (besides wanting to support NolsoN).

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someday you will face group of 12 toploots on every server and they will kick shit of everything they can reach or find, all your arguments sound that you are scared of them grounding your cute base and
your group to dust

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beans

Misunderstood mb

Not really relevant seeing as you aren’t saying how this is possible to fix, as official is just the best solution.

This sounds like a solution but how exactly would this work? Do you want a team of mods that are given massive amounts of power over the entire game to just ban servers??

Okay. Then they should just pay the 5 dollars, because:

This still isn’t a solution. If the servers are empty, zergs won’t play due to lack of competition/fun, if they are full, zergs aren’t a problem…What are you trying to say?

Its a wild assumption but hey :man_shrugging:

Must be rough ngl

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I uhh… explained it before. If you want to talk about that in particular, you can ask for this post to be revived.

Link above. My general philosophy on “Official Servers” is that

I’ve seen Zergs play somewhat dead servers before. As-long as theres a few scant players to toy around with and exploit, theres still some fun to be had. And with all this argument about “4.0 being PvE orientated!!1!” I’m sure they’ll have some PvE challenges they can do in the mean time while they wait for a scant amount of players to come online.

Also, you’re ignoring the fact that dominating an official server is sorta like a prize or trophy one can and will parade around with. There isn’t much merit in taking over some community server nobody’s ever heard of, but completely dominating the official server?

They’re still a problem, I simply said they can or could be possibly overthrown with enough cooperation and dedication amongst others. Its like a feedback loop.

Take for instance a server. Nobody likes playing an empty server. But if the server is full, others will want to play. The more players playing, the more players will want to join and get in on the action. I think the Official Servers will fail to reach a “critical point” where this feedback loop can sustain itself, at-least for a long time. If this feedback loop is not sustained, then theres not even the remote chance that there will be enough opposition and willpower to oppose these elitist groups.

EVEN if they can be rivaled, it would ultimately boil down to two big super-powers battling eachother, which is sorta the conclusion some people came to in the “Better Together” post. They said it would just become one big faction war, which is distasteful for freelancers or people that refuse to join either side.

edit: Better Together post, incase you dont get what I mean

If you are not willing to join either group in this hypothetical scenario, you’re not going to have any fun getting blasted off the face of the server.

This is how 90% of the controversial arguments I try to do play out. I get barraged with some legitimate questions or feedback. “And if you dont reply, you’ve lost” mindset settles in for almost everybody.

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Isn’t a big feature of UII/4.0 the ability to host your own servers through Steam’s system? Not sure entirely how it works but I definitely recall that being a major thing Nelson wants to implement.

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How exactly would this be better? All non-official servers would be relying 100% on donations to stay up, which would seriously lower the amount of servers as people would have to be hosting right out of their pocket, and even if nice people donate money to the server, It would still end up forcing someone to be paying for a server, except it would just be charity this time. Far less people own a dedicated machine that can run a server 24/7 than people who can afford five (5) dollars

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He said something in an interview, about direct paying servers donations through steam wallet. I personally despise this, because it will just make pay-to-win purchases way easier and faster than they already are.

If he is thinking about partnering with a company to provide a quick, easy “rent server” button, then I mean cool I guess? Nelson makes a profit from advertising said company, and people get an easy avenue to renting (which is still bad in my book). But how does that have anything to do with Official Servers?

Yep. Just like mine. And plenty of other servers

This is quite lengthy and a little political, so to keep the thread shorter, its encased in this little box

Capitalist for-profit servers already host out of pocket. Its a business venture and “risk” for them to do so. Their servers do go away - that is, when they aren’t profitable and dont out-compete other servers.

Take for instance LYHME. One day the owner decided “hey my p2w ranks are pretty unfair, let me try making them more fair” to which all the “donators” didn’t like that, and sorta left. Meanwhile other notoriously for-profit P2W servers that make thousands of dollars a month (way more than needed to keep them hosted) stay popular, because they generally dont care if its unfair. They dont care about handling long abuse reports and upholding “justice” when they can just ban the player that is whining about abuse and carry on with their profit.

So I ask, would you care if there were less servers, especially if the servers that are going to go are unfair and generally unfun? These servers out-compete similar fair servers (bear in mind through shitty tactics. Not because they’re more fun, or provide a better experience like the free-market capitalism you learn in school would do), and I think with their absence these people are more willing to play into the server-hosting game for fun and for the community.

Without for-profit servers sending henchmen to other servers to apply as staff and sabotage them, such in the case of @ForeverBlue . Without for-profit servers buying out Youtubers such as Elitelupas to advertise their server, even if they dont even genuinely like the server or want to endorse it. Without for-profit servers clogging up the server-list.

In the post I detail how P2W servers make up a lot of the server-list, while also claiming that if we removed them all, the server-list would still be healthy. My point here (and the almost seemingly contradicting claim) was there in the absence of these P2W servers, fair servers will spring up and take their place. EVEN if they did not, the server-list if FULL of empty servers that nobody plays, because its so crowded.

Its like self-publishing your own book amongst a sea of other books. Sure, your book could be amazing, the cream of the crop, yet lost among the waves of other generally crappy, terrible books. Fair servers may be fun and amazing, and may be out there, but theres just so many complications and junk servers, especially P2W ones that are in the way.

(This is why I made “low tier memes for kicks” to highlight the sea of garbage servers. It was not an attack on any individual servers, yet thats why its locked.)

There are plenty of people who host honorable, legitimate servers for the community, and not for themselves. Not everything has to be profit-based for people to create things. Look at all the people on github, and various other places. Look at Linux and all of its free distributions. Look at all the free mods and maps available on the steam workshop. People have other incentives besides profit, and of course have other means to pay for server costs than to exploit mindless, snobby rich children.

Theres an extreme fallacy or problem with this, but I cant put my finger on it. So I wont even try.

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You misunderstood armaros. Actually, server hosting by a click of a button on your own pc was already added in devlog 5

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You misunderstood. We’re talking about completely different things. I am well aware there will be a one-click setup for hosting your own servers, on your own machines. Possibly through P2P.

There was Recently a interview with Nelson by @Zoom_B talking about what we’re talking about. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’m talking about what @KingFrog is talking about, not direct payment to server owners for renting them out through Steam.

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oh.

oh…

Ok. Well what does that have to do with anything? One-click P2P server setup seems cool, but how is that relevant?

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Would still lower the amount of servers, fair (official) or maybe not fair (normal)

If I held my hand up it would be pointless, but it will still be up. Whats the point?

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Here we go again the same topic as always.

Its very clear to me that after many wonderful community members like @Wakko @anon67155151 @GreatHeroJ (Edit: and many others, too many to mention) all presented compelling arguments, your thought process for this opinion is flawed. Not only that but I believe your opinion on this topic cannot be changed no matter the lack of evidence there is for your opinion.

It seems to me that the reason you are so against official servers, is that official servers will stifle the demand for the Vanilla (or semi-vanilla) server network that you currently run and plan to run in Unturned II. Furthermore your topics are always filled with unsubstantiated claims, which have no evidence and are largely hyperbole.

All of these over reaching statements with no evidence, its all speculation and conjecture based off of your highly biased opinion. Give me a shred of evidence for Official servers causing pay to win in ANY survival game. DayZ doesn’t have this problem. Rust doesn’t have this problem. Miscreated doesn’t have this problem.

Thanks to you awesome community members for trying to make valid arguments against this, but save your time, his opinion cannot be swayed.

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LOL. You think I created this post in self-interest for my franchise? I wouldn’t even be running one single server if 3.0’s server-list was great. I’m only here to fill the void of relaxed, non-abusive, non-p2w, non-rented servers until one big change comes along, whether in the form of Official Servers or Server-List Quality Control.

Its laughable to think that I made this to defend my franchise, when the entire post was created (And, bear in mind every other meta post I’ve created regarding servers) because I care about the well-being of the community and health of the server-list.

To you, maybe. To me, not. I suppose I’m not all that great at conveying my point or idea, that doesn’t exactly mean the thought process leading up to my logical conclusion was wrong or inherently flawed.

Do you have counter-evidence?

Do you have a better answer to the paywall?

Sure, anyone can bash on my critique, but do you have a better way to go about it? Everything I’ve claimed or assumed was based on educated, well-made guesses that are derived from almost 7,000 hours of game time and plenty of external time and thought running servers, running groups, websites, meetings, and so on about the game.

To think that you, someone with way less hours coming at me like this, not having enough respect to even call my argument valid, is rude, disrespectful and unproductive to the discussion at hand.

This is classic Ad Hominem at its finest.

Can you list a single, popular survival game where the game is free or paid for, but you must then pay for DLC to play official servers?

Asfar as I know, DayZ does not do this. You pay for DayZ, you play Official Servers.

I own and have played Rust. Rust does not do this. You pay for Rust, and have access to Official Servers.

That is irrelevent to the topic at hand. If you want to talk about Official Servers causing P2W, theres a place to talk about it, this post is not that place.

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Sure, anyone can bash on my critique, but do you have a better way to go about it? Everything I’ve claimed or assumed was based on educated, well-made guesses that are derived from almost 7,000 hours of game time and plenty of external time and thought running servers, running groups, websites, meetings, and so on about the game.

To think that you, someone with way less hours coming at me like this, not having enough respect to even call my argument valid, is rude, disrespectful and unproductive to the discussion at hand.

hey rain have you heard about the genetic logical fallacy

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wh…
what?
you…
what?
you just made an entire argument about how official servers cause p2w and then said that your post wasn’t a place to talk about it?

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I think your past and activities (like all people) influence your opinions.

That is not how arguments work @RainOfPain125. You made a claim, you need to provide evidence to back-up your claim.

There is a concept called Hitchens’s razor which says basically this: " *What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence "

Quoted from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens's_razor

Basically it means the burden of evidence is on the person making the claim.

I don’t have to have an answer to the pay-wall. I think having pay to join official servers is fine. I haven’t been presented any evidence to the contrary.

An Ad Hominem is this:
“arguement is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.”

Which is not what I have done. I want more evidence from your position, and you have not provided any.

The closest thing I can think of are Unturned Gold servers. Which I played on back in the day, and I don’t recall them suffering from any of the issues you have listed above.

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