Gun Balancing

this was forwarded from steam and not by me, just posting here to forward your thoughts to him <3

Ive spent over 4000 hours on this game, and its still the same gun ‘meta’ as it was 4 years ago…

Would be nice to chuck up the meta of the current guns. This would be due to the consistent use of maplestrikes, pdw’s etc

Suggestions include:

  • increased horizontal recoil on maplestrike (to something similar to augewehr)

  • Made Reloading boxes into guns (matamorez, cobra etc) take more time to reload (similar to the current military drum and ranger drum) EDIT - may have already been updated

  • Made snare trap do 75% damage (rather than like 10)

  • Added military barrel attachment to vonya (because vonya sucks in comparison to other shotguns) (and yes suppressed shotguns exist)

  • Burst fire added to teklowvka, cobra and avenger (because pistols need a buff)

  • Cobra recoil reduced

  • Ace damage increased to 60 damage (from 50) (or increase the headshot multiplier to 1.25 instead of 1.1)

  • Schofield damage increased to 85 (from 80)

  • Heartbreaker damage increased to 45 (from 40)

  • Changed explosive ammunition to be refillable with high caliber ammunition (or maybe low cal)

  • Desert Falcon uses low caliber ammunition
    OR

  • Desert Falcon Damage increased to 99 (from 80)

  • Increased effectiveness of Tactical Laser to increase spread by 0.5 multiplier (from 0.8)

  • added shotgun slugs - same damage and range as all pellets combined

  • Added quiver attachment for compound bow and crossbow that increases reload time

Cosmetic

  • Suppressor is thicker in diameter and slightly longer

  • Made night vision scope look cooler and increased amount of mil-dots

Spawns:

  • Added bayonet to ranger spawn

Extra

  • Also, make a server option to turn off arrow and suppressor durability.

Whats your guys’ thoughts?

7 Likes

You do not know anything about guns so I’m gonna ignore this post

4 Likes

Hmm i like most of these Buffs and Nerfs but im not sure about some like the desert falcon with 99 Damage,the falcon its already powerful i mean 1 hs with helmet will kill you
Or the horizontal recoil on the maplestrike,maybe just a very little bit but not enough to stop being the maplestrike we know and love

Now what i’d like.

Barrels on vonya.Hmm maybe

Cobra recoil.Yes it needs a reduction of recoil

Burst fire on Pistols.I think that would be good

The Hearthbreaker.I also think it Needs a damage buff or maybe a buff on rate because it looks more like an Scar L than a Scar H

Ace Damage.Oh yes it needs a damage buff,i mean its a Revolver,if its based on the colt phyton it should be more powerful

schofield Damage.Nah i think it have enough

Shotgun slugs.Oh yes i really want them in the game,also a new shotgun reload mechanic

Quiver.hmm im not sure about this

Suppressor thickness.not sure about this because there’s a lot of suppressors

NV scope.yeah,why not

Bayonet on ranger spawns.Maybe?

*Now a few Buffs and Nerfs on two guns i replied to another post(should have created a post with this reply )
I´d really like these buffs/Nerfs.Oh and im using real life info here

-The viper-H&K Mp5 (Submachinegun):

  • Buff the magazine to have the 30 bullets.If we are talking about a normal version of the Mp5 and not an Mp5k,the shortened version that can be used with an 15 rounds magazine (Or add both mags and both mp5)
  • Buff recoil.The MP5 in real life have a very low and controllable recoil,thats one of the characteristics that make the Mp5 so popular,but in 3.0 its like trying to shoot an AK in CS:GO full auto because of its horizontal recoil
  • Keep it low damage,because it uses 9mm bullets.Sure,in real life it still being a bullet and it will kill you if you get shot to the head but talking about in-game,it would do low damage,but it would be compensated by Rate of Fire and low recoil

-Matamorez-VSS vintorez (Special Sniper Rifle)

Ok,this one is a Sniper Rifle and not an Assault Rifle as it appears in-game,BUT it can be used in full auto with its original magazine of 10 9x39 SP-5 bullets Or magazines of 20 9x39 SP-6 from the AS Val.In 3.0 it uses magazines that hold a lot more ammo(17 and 36 rounds :face_with_raised_eyebrow:)

  • The 9x39 SP-5 its a subsonic cartdridge that avoids sonic boom,and additionally the bullet its very effective against body armor or steel plates,knowing this i’d say(by my logic) that it would still being a raiding gun and it would negate a good part of body armor damage reduction,being balance with the smaller 10 rounds magazines
  • In 3.0 it has Semi,Auto and Safety modes;

-Semi is Semi,and like all other guns in Semi,it has a small but annoying delay (that i hope will be fixed)but if it is fixed you should be able to quickly tap the click to shoot,but as fast as your finger is,like a special characteristic of it

-Auto,in the matamorez is slow(rate of fire) like a compensation to the very high magazine capacity and high damage but actually it should be very fast(rate of fire) and the magazine(10 rounds) would deplete faster,this being the balance ammo/damage/Rate of Fire

I’ll resume this to:

-Nerf standard magazine to 10 bullets

-Nerf Damage to idk…around 45,to use at least 3 shots to kill from the chest up and 4 or 5 to limbs (and of course the shots will make you bleed)

-Buff helmets and armor being almost ignored

-Buff Rate of Fire plus quickly tapping in semi.

As someone who has worked on the stats of guns in a curated map and understands gun balance…

  • increased horizontal recoil on maplestrike (to something similar to augewehr)

I don’t think the recoil pattern should be changed, but the general side-to-side recoil can be increased. The Maplestrike’s perfectly average horizontal recoil is pretty much the only thing is has going for it. Other than that, it’s average.

  • Made Reloading boxes into guns (matamorez, cobra etc) take more time to reload

This hasn’t been implemented for those two, but I don’t see them as too powerful as those two magazines are comparably not very large.

  • Made snare trap do 75% damage (rather than like 10)

Sure

  • Added military barrel attachment to vonya

The Vonya is the only vanilla semi-auto shotgun. Its damage output and firerate are alright, and despite losing its automatic mode, it’s still fine where it is. It spawns at like police locations, so it can be considered the Russian Bluntforce, and there it does fine.

But, adding barrel slots to a shotgun isn’t good. The barrel would make it basically fire slugs, which doesn’t seem that great from a balance perspective due to the overkill shotguns can do. And with suppressors, the durability would be too high for a shotgun. Out of a military suppressor, which can be fired 33 times to 1%, a Maplestrike can deal 1320 damage. A Sabertooth can deal 1980 damage. But a Vonya? That’s 6930 damage, way too much.

So instead, actual shotgun barrels attachments should be added. This can be things like chokes and a suppressor that’s properly balanced for the job.

  • Burst fire added to teklowvka, cobra and avenger (because pistols need a buff)

Cobra doesn’t need burst as it’s already auto, and low tier guns need to exist. It’s fine for pistols to not be the best because they shouldn’t.

  • Cobra recoil reduced

Once again, pistols shouldn’t be king, they’re low tier. The Cobra is a stepping stone to SMGs. However, it’s recoil is way way high, even for what it is. It would be toned down a bit.

  • Ace damage increased to 60 damage (from 50) (or increase the headshot multiplier to 1.25 instead of 1.1)

The Ace is a civilian low-cal secondary that is a 3 shot kill against armored targets. It’s a civilian tier pistol, and it’s considered one of the best pistols. It doesn’t need to be better. Once again, pistols don’t need to and shouldn’t be the best.

  • Schofield damage increased to 85 (from 80)

What would this accomplish? This wouldn’t even 1-shot players with civilian tier helmets.

  • Heartbreaker damage increased to 45 (from 40)

I’d actually argue for 47. The Heartbreaker simply fires too slow to be relevant. Literally the worst AR in the game.

  • Changed explosive ammunition to be refillable with high caliber ammunition (or maybe low cal)

Absolutely not. Explosive ammo causes ARs to have even faster MTTKs, making them requiring one less shot to secure the kill. Being able to refill straight up higher damage magazines would upset balance quite a bit. Frag rounds should be a one-use thing.

  • Desert Falcon uses low caliber ammunition

Sure, but it should do about 60 damage instead, but it would gain an extra round in the magazine pushing it to 8 rounds.

  • Desert Falcon Damage increased to 99 (from 80)

Similar case to the Ace. The Desert Falcon is a pistol, it shouldn’t be insane. It’s a two shot secondary, which is already pretty damn good. Being able to one shot in some cases with it would be way too powerful.

  • Increased effectiveness of Tactical Laser to increase spread by 0.5 multiplier (from 0.8)

Just why? The accuracy of the guns that can accept tacticals is already very very high. This would make sniping with SMGs possible. Hell, even the Banshee becomes able to kill within its whole range.

  • added shotgun slugs - same damage and range as all pellets combined

Not with that implementation. I’m yet to find an implementation of shotgun slugs that I like. During internal testing with slugs like that, they became rather frustrating for everyone.

If the slugs weren’t very accurate, the shotgun shooter would become frustrated as you just had tons of damage zip away and then you die to low firerate.

If the slugs were accurate/the shooter got lucky, the target was instantly dead. The combined damage of a shotgun is really really high. The Vonya does 210, and the Bluntforce/Vanguard does 240. Even a shot to the leg is a one shot.

With less damage, it became a “why am I not using buckshot in this thing, or an AR?”

So basically, I’m all for slugs. Just find an implementation that’s good.

EDIT: I just remembered the Determinator exists. A one-shot slug cannon secondary… Once again, find a better implementation of slugs. Like seriously, I would love to hear one.

  • Added quiver attachment for compound bow and crossbow that increases reload time

I don’t really know how I feel about that. Bows already do an assload of damage for being a low tier weapon, and silent too. Their wonky ballistics, low firerate, and aiming difficulty is their balance factor.

  • Suppressor is thicker in diameter and slightly longer

This is more of a case-by-case thing, which believe it or not, can be adjusted case by case! For example, the Corsican’s barrel attachments are slightly smaller, and the quest reward Single Shot Shotgun’s barrel is much larger than normal. So it’s just each gun needs a tweak where it needs it.

  • Made night vision scope look cooler and increased amount of mil-dots

Sure.

  • Added bayonet to ranger spawn

I’m not opposed.

  • Also, make a server option to turn off arrow and suppressor durability.

I have nothing against a setting like that, but Nelson has stated he wants suppressors to be limited. So I don’t know if it’ll get through.

12 Likes

YES, PLEASE

Now that would be broken, basically instant kill when the enemy gets in your shotgun range

you realize slugs would be worse?

imagine using bluntforce

imagine your crosshair is half on someone, half not

normal bullets will evenly spread, and the total 280~ damage of all the pellets will split and half will hit him, thus 140 damage. You either one hit them or one hit them

slug is all those bullets in one. it simply has half chance of missing, half chance of hitting. You either one hit them or dont

.50 AE =/= .50 BMG smh

240 dmg rng cannon is still a bad idea, one shot on leg shots should not be a thing. Also imagine Determinator with slugs :ok_hand:

3 Likes

Maybe buff slugs range, but make something like Schofield damage and terrible armor penetration

If its a bad idea, then why is it in the game? Thats literally how shotguns work. The bluntforce does 40 damage per pellet, assuming theres atleast 6 pellets, thats 240dmg total.

Still the same argument. Its the same damage throughput, just through a different means.

I think equal range would be OK, considering the trade-off is that it’s a single slug instead of multiple pellets, much easier to control and guide.

1 Like

I must agree with most of this, whilst i don’t really think the maplestrike nessesarily needs a nerf, although i never use it so mabye it is op idk

I would also add a few more things

Nykorev damage increased to 37 (from 32).
Nykorev Horizontal Min-Max Horizontal Recoil decreased to (-2.5) - (-1.5) (from (-4) - (2)
self explanitory this gun sucks atm. For those wanting the gun to be a “sentry gun”, this will help with that as well

Grizzly damage decreased to 85 (from 99)
Currently, the grizzly is basically a semi auto timberwolf, even though both are rare. so i think that the damage should be nerfed to be closer to a more powerful sabertooth

Matamorez range decreased to 250m (from 300m)
Matamorez damage decreased to 65 (from 70)
Why should the matamorez have more damage than the snayperskya? and more range? I get its rare but currently it is insanely powerful, especially since you literally cannot hear the gun from the ranges that they can hit you at. It will still be very powerful, acting like a sniper - rifle hybrid but wouldn’t be op

Hells Fury damage increased to 43 (from 37)
The hells fury dps still isn’t even better than the dragonfang, and considering its drawbacks (innacurate, loud, cant take scope etc) it should have better dps

Dragonfang damage decreased to 37 (from 50)
The dragonfang is the best combat weapon in the game if you can maintain its ammunition use, whilst the nykorev (which should be equal in overall effectiveness considering it is about just as rare) remains shunned. Since the dragonfang is the raiding LMG, it probably should not be the combat LMG as well, also why does the dfang have better dps than the hells fury???

Augewher damage increased to 45 (from 43)
Augewher Min-Max horizontal recoil decreased to (-0.5) - (0.5) (From (-1) - (1)

Currently the Maplestrike has less horizontal recoil than the augewher, which doesn’t make sense because the augs best trait is recoil control

On the topic of the slugs, i like the idea, but i think it should deal less damage than the normal shotgun blast, but should be more accurate and have better range. trust me dealing less damage won’t be that big of a nerf when most shotguns deal upwards of 200 damage per shot.

I definitely think 45 is sufficient. It is by far the most common rifle, and giving it chimera-like stats would for sure unbalance maps like washington

For most guns, accuracy is relitively irrelevant, and the laser simply does not help enough. Why would you give away your position in combat for a mere 20% accuracy buff (especially when you can sometimes take an adaptive). I think 0.5 might be excessive (mabye 0.6 is more appropriate). Also you kind of already can snipe with most SMG’s, easily being able to spray down people within the maximum range of the SMG.

I dont think so, considering how rare the desert falcon is, its not like people would find this in a police station. Being a two shot secondary is definitely not good, when smg’s exist. The timberwolf does 99 damage, can take a scope and has triple the range, yet that isn’t op. i get that the desert falcon is semi, but it is impossible to shoot quickly considering the awful ironsights, which get blocked by the muzzle flash. This makes it impossible to take follow up shots rapidly in succession, and with any significant accuracy. People underestimate the immense importance scopes play in pvp.

oh wait third person exists, i guess all those intentional nerfs to the desert falcon dont matter

jk jk don’t actually worry about that much

Shotgun inaccuracy sets off the damage that at first may seem ridiculous. Only reason shotguns have so much damage is because they have so much inaccuracy which creates pellet spread. Even with attachments it’s not possible to hit target with all the pellets unless you are in close range.

Creating a slug ammo type that does same damage as all the pellets but creates a single projectile is an awful idea due to how much damage shotguns have (which once again is set off by their spread). I don’t know why you are so defensive about a flawed suggestion you are proposing. There are good ways of implementing slugs but this is definitely not one of them. Keeping the inaccuracy of shotguns and making them one shot with your proposed slugs to any body part is just ridiculous (Masterkey would do 190 damage on a leg shot if you wore spec ops gear :+1:). Shotguns work because of their inaccuracy. With normal ammo type shotgun wouldn’t be able to one shot a target at their max range but with slugs you would need to just hope on RNG (because your suggestion mentions nothing about accuracy of shotguns) to bless your shot to hit any body part of your target to instantly neutralise them.

And just to clarify, I don’t mind idea of shotgun slugs, it’s great and they can be implemented well, even in 3.0 but this is certainly not the way to do it.

5 Likes

Hey guys. OP here from steam. If i knew that much more feedback here, i would have posted earlier.
I REALLY appreciate all the feedback - its much better than the steam forums and you all make really valid points and explain in detail which is a great change from steam. (particular thanks to Vilespring. Your feedback is extremely in depth and i honestly love to see it :D) I also like to see all these other interested ideas (makes me think SMG’s need a bit of love also)

excluding some of the trolls :3

Heres a little explanation as to why I said some of these suggestions:
Maplestrike nerf: This is probably the biggest thing on here. But yes we all know it should have come about 3 years ago. This thing is a laser when kitted and even w/o attachments. I just want to see some more diversity in guns as they all fit the same category and i feel a little bit more horizontal recoil would do this - make people experiment with the Aug, nightraider, fusilaut, zubkeknakov (although zub is really good also), heartbreaker etc. I just want to see a change and i think everyone would as well if each rifle had something going for it.

Pistol buffs: I wanted to give these guys a little more ‘oof’. I never see anyone use a pistol and i believe that even the pistols should have a niche and maybe this is where disagreement occurs.
Ace: If the headshot multiplier was increased then it would always be a 2 hit headshot even with a helmet - that was the aim of the damage increase. Never to 1 shot head shot, but i think 3 shot headshot is nuts. Would also make people consider accuracy over just spamming the gun
Desert falcon - I would love the satisfaction of a 1 deag. cmon wouldnt we all :3

Schofield buff - Again with the ‘most guns should have a niche’ - The hawkhound is just a better version as it has more ammo - Just feel slightly more damage would give you a slight reason to pick it over the hawkhound.

Shotgun slugs/vonya buff - okay this was just a thought. Im trying to think of a good way to implement these but i feel like that should be a post of its own.

Tactical laser: I believe the risk vs reward for this attachment is too great. During daytime, hell sure itll do alright, but i never take a laser unless i have no other choice. Its too easy for people to see you (especially during night time) for the little amount of spread decrease imo.

Quiver: Look this was just said to give the arrow uses a little love. The compound bow needs a complete overhaul (which i believe will never happen :C) and the crossbow needs this as well. These can be op in situations and completely useless in others (giving these a nice niche :D)

Suppressor Durability: As mentioned below, this is a sandbox game. So we should at least be able to control suppressor durability if we want to :smiley:

A little explanation as to why i believe that most guns need a ‘niche’. As soon as this game turned into a sandbox one and survival, i believe guns got left behind. I feel as due to the game being sandbox, different guns need different qualities and not just better and worse versions of guns. They still need tiers, but within those tiers each should have their specific use and not just copies :))

1 Like

some thoughts

guns in general need to have their rpm coiled down especially assault rifles as they are way too universal in any fight

ballistics need to be unfucked as nobody using bolt actions since its possible to literally outrun boolet and most guns output a lot of dakka which allows to hit runner

generally pistols are lackluster and dont see any action due to their unable to sport sight attachments and poor rpm while good pistols consume same boolets to reload as proper guns

shotguns are meh as rifles output same dmg and you have chance after miss, the only memorable shotgun for me is masterkey and AA12 as they shred everything close while bluntforce and vonya dont

there is no point to nerf one gun in favor of others as NATO rifles have 0 difference in playstyle

fact that laser have actual light instead of glowing sprite makes user visible everywhere

for its being extremely common its already matches most guns at close range

5 more dmg makes it slighthy better?

since bayonets see no use it would be useful

explosive dakka is rare as hell anyway

I’m really not sure why you want the Maple nerfed yet you’re not looking at the three hybrid rifles (especially the Fusi, with the highest ttk in the game, at least for an AR)

OK. I’m just gonna pick at this and this only.

Ever play COD? - And no I’m not comparing UT to COD - Ever play the good COD games? Basically BO2 and before. When you ran up to someone and were riding them, they could knife you and instant kill you. In a newer COD - Advanced Warfare - this isn’t the case, and does not instant kill.

And thats just plain silly. That should be a player’s punishment for getting too close to an enemy. It made the game virtually awful for me to play and thankfully I never bought it - this was also when I stopped playing COD as a whole and moved to PC.

Don’t make an AW argument on shotguns. If you get too close, then maybe you deserve to be instant killed. I can already simply aim in to have great accuracy and land all the pellets where I want to and one-shot them. Slugs are just a fun alternative that are wackier, and may be used effectively if done with skill. Plenty of people have been asking for slugs since as far back as I can remember. Just give them their silly, balanced idea.

The inaccuracy on a slug-filled shotgun amd pellet-filled shotgun are equal. If you can’t land a great deal of shots with pellets at whatever range you’re at, then you’ll probably miss your slug shot from the same place. Likewise, if you can hit all the pellets, then from the same place you’ll more than likely hit with a slug.

That should be a player’s punishment for getting too close

In this, we would have to compare it, actually.
COD, in a nutshell, puts players in a map that is sized evenly enough where they can sprint around like rats and pick each other off with the weapons they have, and there is a mutual goal they have to meet. Game design affects everything else, including weapon mechanics.

Unturned doesn’t play like that.

With the shotgun ammunition we currently have, I’d say sure.
But with a single slug? I disagree.

There should be determined functions wherein different things perform better or worse at. A slug with all the pellets combined is pretty much bad design IMO. It undermines the function of the buckshot at certain ranges. Simply having a slug that does that ‘just because’ is thonk emoji.

1 Like

This isn’t true. One has multiple pellets that you have less overall control over. The other has one shot that will typically hit wherever you aim, and has a pretty low chance of ever missing.

I don’t think people associate slugs with using them at close range. Aren’t they more associated with higher accuracy over longer ranges?

If you have buckshot that can insta-kill at close range, why make the slugs do the same thing and still be a direct upgrade at long range?

That’s not balanced. It’s making buckshot rubbish in comparison, because you have an alternative with the same overall stats (except for number of pellets) that’s easier to hit long-range. OP has slugs as a direct upgrade over buckshot.

A “50%” chance to miss isn’t true, and even if it was it isn’t the same as your chance to miss your buckshot. You have control over where the slug goes. You do not have control over a majority of the buckshot.


For there to be balanced slugs that are still fun to use, most of the current stats for shotguns should be moved into the shells, or there needs to be more modifiers that the .dat files for shells to use. Make slugs long-range and more damage, but not that much damage where it kills you literally no matter what. I don’t see what’s “silly” or “fun” in that, especially if people are already annoyed with normal buckshot insta-kills (regardless of whether or not that saltiness is justified imo).

If it really needed a niche mechanic, give it penetration or something random and silly like that.

6 Likes

I think this would be (IMO) a more reasonable design for slug rounds.

  • x2 base damage multiplier.
  • x2 range multiplier.
  • Better bullet ballistics.
  • Greatly decreased spread.

All shotguns except sawed off deal less than 50 damage per pellet, meaning it would not instantly kill but still enough to grievous damage. This would counteract with the increased range capabilities and accuracy, and to also make snipers not as bad as they look with their 99 base damage to players.

The increased range and bullet speed allows for better ranged combat which the slug was designed as.