RFC: Banning Purchase of Individual In-Game Items

Yes I tried to make an edit in my comment, but whoever designed this thread in particular is cringe because they aren’t allowing us to edit!

So this is what I had to say but forgot to say

If this is just a start, to create the website and infrastructure (code) necessary to begin the warning and banning process of blacklisting servers, then that is fine, but it should be expected that these ideas are pushed further into removing paid advantages in the game outright, to stop servers from ruining the gameplay experience of Unturned. A great win for the community at the loss of a few rich goons.

From what Nelson wrote above, he is still only going to separate the serverlist into “fair” servers and “microtransaction” servers. “Microtransaction” servers only include servers with one-time purchases, but do not include servers where you can pay for a rank with kits, vehicles, money, etc.

So essentially, servers where you can get an advantage are still going to be in the “fair servers” category under Nelson’s current criteria.

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If they remove selling currency, then they wont get affected at all under Nelson’s plans. And to loop around buying individual transactions of currency, they will probably just include a “salary” with the paid ranks.

countless people are making accounts to protest for P2W to be removed outright.

It is the popular option, and Unturned is made for the players who play it - not the rich goons who run a handful of servers that would immediately get replaced by better servers following a ban on P2W.

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Even if Nelson were to decide on fully banning any and all paid advantages, he could not enforce that. The dude could not keep the server list from getting flooded with Hentai thumbnails and breaks the game every other update. I like Unturned as much as the next guy but if you (of all people) want to give a shingle person (or rather company) that much power I am afraid you are naïve at best and outright delusional at worst.

He took away dudes item for spicy bants, imagine what would happen if he started nuking servers he does not like. As the resident “tyranny by majority” poster you should be up in arms.

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Thank you for the the call and the opportunity, it was a delightful experience.

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Just trying to find logic and common sense in your words and im really struggling, no offence.
You say your main goal is “protect players from spending huge amounts of money really quickly” and you are planning to do it by “prohibiting the discussed miscrotransactions, but allowing permanent purchases, donations, monthly subscriptions, etc”.
So, lets try to follow the logic behind this. First of all, we should understand why players are spending more money on one server than on another. Answer is probably that server is more popular, more active and players find that it is worth to do it because they enjoy it.
I doubt that it is possible to force player to buy something if he doesnt want. But lets go back to the idea of limiting micro transactions. What does this limitation solves when there is option to sell permanent purchases and monthly subscriptions?
It seems like you don’t understand how most of the servers work, what are possibilities for donations for those ranks/kits. Lets take two already mentioned examples.
Server 1 sells permanent/monthly ranks which gives extra useful commands, items kit, certain amount of money right after purchase (lets say 100000 in game currency), money kit (you type certain command and get extra money over time).
Server 2 sells maplestrike as an item for 1 usd. So according to the logic, first server is doing nothing wrong, but second for some reason is treated as a bad thing.
If you implement such changes, first server has to do nothing and can keep selling as he used to, but second server has to rename his package, for example instead of “buy maplestrike for 1eur” he has to do something like this - “kit maplestrike1 30d”.
Lets say that “kit maplestrike1 30d” gives you maplestrike right after purchase as an item and some clothing like orange hoodie and blue jeans as a kit which lets say you can use every 10 days. And you create like ~20 kits with same maplestrike, but different shirt and pants.
Technically we have monthly ranks, just instead of having 1 item on store, we have 20, not even considering, that package always look better than a single item.
Lets say, technically you could limit purchase of a rank/kit so that player could buy only once in a month, but if you have extra stuff to sell (~20 maplestrike kits with minor changes), it makes no difference in the end.
This is example, considering that everyone can edit their stores and implement some kind of blocking system. Again, limiting purchases with monthly/permanent doesnt change anything, since there will be just more packages/ranks/subcribtions selling same stuff with minor changes as packages or
players will just buy same packages/ranks/subscribtions over and over, even though those subscribtions will be listed or work as permanent/monthly. While your method doesnt change anything, there is one thing that caught my attention:
“This will help with the most egregious pay-to-win, and protect players from spending huge amounts of money really quickly.” How you decide if server 1 is less pay-to-win than server 2? Do you have a special scale?
On a server where everything is hard to get or takes a lot of time, even simple things like certain commands or a bigger vault could be more pay-to-win thing than a maplestrike for 1 eur. With all respect, you shouldnt decide what is more or less pay-to-win. Only players can
decide, but again, what seems pay-to-win for one player, may not look as a pay-to-win for another. It leads to a conclusion, that if a certain server is so bad, why do players choose to play on it? Why they play on a server where you can easily buy maplestrike for 1 eur,
while you could buy full package of pay-to-win perks on another? Final decission is yours, so in the end you will decide who is good and who is bad. I just hope that you will take your time to actually play on that server for a while to understand how every server works.
And if no, it is like deciding which person is good or bad, based on his profile picture, skin color, gender or by the talks you heard from a stranger. Quite a judgement i guess. And what about all players who spent their money on a server and that server got banned?
Who will refund them? Or it is considered as collateral damage? Everything leads to a conlusion, that there will be lots of uncertainty and subjective decissions.
Lets dont forget about emotional side of people. Constant attempts to sabotage servers just because that player got banned for breaking rules? Other servers who think that they cant succeed, just because your server is more popular than his? Dont understimate the power of will
of some people. Would you pernsonally work on a server with an idea that one day, you would be banned, just because of someone wrote game developer long letter that he spent 2k dollars on a server and according to him it was extremely pay-to-win server, who banned him for no reason.
You already can see how some individuals are talking. I dont really want to get into such drama and hope everyday that some really dedicated individuals wont decide to destroy all the work you have done, just because they dont like it. Thats why i ask to make a strong decision, instead
of bringing this chaos into community. Stop trying to make everyone happy, it is impossible. Rules on such sensitive things should be very clear and simple, with no place for interpretation. 0 p2w donations or private servers decide how they want to operate + separate server list/filter for
servers with no p2w features. Who really would like to get into dramas with mad kids or jelous lunatics? It is better to completely remove all p2w aspects from server and sleep tight, than constantly be afraid to check your email or server to see if you got banned or not.
Personally, i think there should be separate server listing for servers with no p2w aspects and banning p2w servers who mark their servers as non p2w while having p2w goods on their store. Private servers have full control on how they want to operate, what to sell or not. Players decide
if that server is worth their time or money. There are lots of “unturnov” servers they all looks the same, what is different is server rules, longevity and reliability. Some seek for quick fortune, some focus on a longterm idea, but in the end players recognizes that and makes a decission.
It is not a secrete that servers who dont care about their community dont last forever. Players talk with each other, community isnt that big for bad servers to sustain on new players for years. We all can name multiple servers who seemed like very sucessfull networks which generated huge
amounts of money, were always populated, but for some reason, they dissapeared. Started my server 2 years ago, for like half year it was pretty much empty, until little by little some players started recognising it. I was and i am now really dedicated to my server, maybe thats why now server
slots are filled almost everyday. Someone said, that servers who have pay-to-win donations look fancy, they can afford creating new plugins, content. How is this a bad thing? Dont be jelous, everyone started from 0, just others work more on servers than comments section while trying to smirch
for being sucessful. Doesnt matter, if it will be 0 p2w or freedoom for server owners, i will not support something in the middle because i will not be targeted or judged by some mad kids. 0 p2w policy is way better than being involved in some dirty games. I dont want to try to get around the rules,
pretend, but fact is there would be such things. Your note about “This will help with the most egregious pay-to-win, and protect players from spending huge amounts of money really quickly.” It is imaginary scale which has 0 clarity. Be realistic. Sorry if this critique sounds too harsh, but im not trying
to flatter you here.

Banning predatory purchases was a good move. That should have been done years ago. Glad we still allow paid options, because as somebody with a job and little free time I happen to like getting those kits. “P2W” servers exist because people are willing to play on them. They dominate the top of the server list. Because thats what the players want, its been this way for 5 years now. If players truly wanted the “vanilla no p2w” experience, then those servers would have failed. Thinking that removing paid advantages will somehow draw in more players despite the fact that servers without micro transactions already exist is lunacy. If your playerbase wanted it, they’d get it. There are plenty of vanilla servers that simply do not get the audience that these P2W servers do, simply because they are boring as hell. Thats just how it is. These kits speed up gameplay considerably. Often these micro transaction servers include free kits as well. It keeps the action going, its a lot of fun.

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They exist because Nelson continues to let them exist. :slightly_smiling_face:

What you actually meant to say, is that fair quality servers do not exist because they are de-incentivized to exist in the first place, because P2W servers dominate the serverlist because of their very nature as predatory, clickbaiting, moneygrabbing networks.

It made me not want to run a server franchise, but I did so anyway. I know hundreds of people who were capable of hosting but did not want to host because of P2W servers - because my franchise was about recruiting fellow hosters and hosting together as a Union, so I talked to many people regarding hosting their own server(s).

You also use the fallacy that the only possible servers that can be fair, or that the only servers we want to see being fair, are “vanilla” servers. I’d rather every server have the fair no P2W experience. I enjoy RP too, I enjoy creative too. I and everyone else, do not enjoy paid advantages at the expense of everyone else.

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They exist because theyve filled an desire of the community. Businesses are businesses because they profit and grow, like these servers do. They absolutely dominate the server list. You tried to run a franchise with your tenets of “balance” and they failed. Because nobody wants to play on them.

The ability of a server to make profit has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal and popularity of said servers. These servers are nearly always full for a reason. People LOVE them. Thats why they work in the first place. If the majority of the community actually, as you say, hated these servers, they wouldve taken the alternatives.

This is nonsense. Rival servers have nothing to do with the profitability of your own, the only competition there is in the appeal. If people wanted to play on your server, theyd play on it. But they dont. They dont have a spot at the top of the list because you can buy kits, they have a spot at the top because people WANT to play on a server they can buy kits on. Not to mention your gross misuse of hoster PCs- yikes!

Youve hyperfocused on the word vanilla and failed to rebuff my point. It makes no difference. Nobody actually cares about your opinion. To actually present the idea that a creative server could be pay to win is hilarious to me. You have access to every facet of the game in creative- the only reason you’d lose is if you suck.

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Dont try to argue with altar father, it is pointless. It is like a cult

These specifically made me want to create an account just so I could disagree and say why I do.
It’s like you’ve never considered why servers that are P2W exist in the first place, other than being money hungry, and continue to thrive in games of all genres. Why would a server that is supposedly so good to play on without having any form of paid advantages fail to stay on top of the list and continue to gather players? It can’t be because its underpreforming, or because it’s running low on money to keep going. People would surely donate to have their favorite server of all time running for as long as possible right? Surely if it was as good as a P2W server it would stay on the top of the list with full lobbies and constant queue’s of players who are excited to play. There would be no reason for it to be drowned out with other servers that are somehow doing better.

It just wouldn’t make sense as to why a server that lets you pay real life money for an item you may not own the next day has more popularity and people wanting to join. Surely people would rather support the server that is focused on the community and not the one giving out items you could lose within an hour of paying real money for. That would just be a braindead purchase with no financial backing to it right? When instead you could pay the server you like to play on daily and show your support for it.

So why would a server that let’s you pay real life currency for an ingame item be so much more popular than one where you aren’t able to. It can’t just be the money that keeps it on the top right? Wouldn’t the server just lose it’s members because they grow tired of having to pay money in order to have the best base and gear? Eventually leading to the server losing all its players and bringing the server with no forms of paid advantage higher up on the search list.

Or maybe there’s a certain part of the playerbase that would rather just pay money and get all the best gear without having to fear losing the items that they could just easily pay for again. Maybe they just rather spend $5 dollars here and there on different items because it’s convenient to them. It might not even be that but it can’t just boil down to the server being money hungry and getting free money.

I know from my experience that I would rather pay and get the items instantly than spending 30 minutes running around trying to gather what I need. Even if the whole point of Unturned is to survive and build in an apocalypse setting. Or lets say in a different game like War Thunder, giving them roughly $14 let me skip all of the 1.1 to 3.7 BR tanks, because I just didn’t want to bother grinding the few hours of playing and get into what I thought is better gameplay.

I think that having two completely separated server lists would be the best way to please the entire community. People who own servers currently deemed P2W would then compete with only other P2W servers and continue to let those who prefer them to play without any restrictions to their play style. This would also allow the non P2W servers to thrive in their own server list and keep the players who dislike P2W servers happy as they wouldn’t run into any.
How you would manage to effectively sort the two types is still something that would need figuring out…

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perhaps if you ran a server, you would have experience on this.

nobody said that the servers I ran were for profit. I never said servers had to be ran for profit. I’m saying servers that are not ran for profit are better as they do not ruin the gameplay experience when they inevitably (or already have) added paid unfair advantages.

defamation, slander, and spreading rumors good! definitely forum-friendly behavior!!!

The fundamental problem is you can’t prove a correlation between “they exist because people like them”. Feudalism was a pretty unpopular system for the peasants, and the peasants continued to participate in it. Feudalism didn’t exist because people liked feudalism. Perhaps there are other reasons why they exist outside of your extremely narrow thought process of “popularity = quality/demand!”

Still going on personal attacks on things you really don’t know anything about. As said earlier, I stopped hosting because I was put into fostercare (Mother passed away), and I could no longer run servers. I never at any point called my project a “failure”, it worked as intended to provide fair quality servers that the Unturned community played on.

In fact, the RASF discord still has people joining every other day even though I stopped advertising it two years ago - because people are constantly trying to find fair servers that are not P2W. They are so eager to find them, that they dig up two year old server advertisements and ask me where the servers went.

You talk a lot about things you know nothing about, which is extremely annoying and unproductive forum behavior.

I never ever claimed my opinion was popular - I don’t need to claim it is popular, for it to be popular. The Unturned community has already shown that removing P2W entirely is a very popular idea. Tons of people have created SDG forum accounts just so they can post on this thread about their support for removing P2W entirely.

I have never seen so many people create accounts to show support for a cause on this forum ever before, even when the SDG forums were at their peak activity.

Because its profitable to create P2W servers. Simple as that. Just because it is profitable, does not imply it is good for the well-being of the Unturned community. If mod creators suddenly started selling their mods, it would be profitable, at the expense of the entire game becoming a lesser version of itself.

Everything else you’re writing here seems to already have been discussed earlier and debunked earlier, so let me pull up what I wrote earlier further on profit. No point in going in circles if I can quote what I’ve already stated before.

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rain being absolutely based wtf what timeline is this

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This is absolute BS. For the vast majority of these P2W servers, most of which are based on Roleplay, there is very little in therm of player enjoyment on the gamemode (RP) the server is ran on, and more often than not people and specifically kids only play on these servers to either have fun with their friends and disregard all rules if they can get away with it, or find friends to do exactly that. There are reasons why the same popular servers have been up for years at this point: publicity. As was brought forward during the town hall interview with Nelson, by MTS and fucking Nylex himself, videos and sponsorships are by far the main driving factor that brings people to play on a specific server.

On all of these servers, those actually looking for a roleplay experience to enjoy, they are likely not to find any unless they buy a rank or something, because a lot of content, like jobs, cars, salaries, and sometimes even undeniably P2W aspects like the fucking /give command, are all locked behind a paywall. Not to mention that on most servers, those few staff members who even slightly give a shit about the state of the server are even less likely to punish donators for breaking rules, resulting in them being able to do pretty much anything they find fun, even if this goes against the server’s own rules.

I doubt that too, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t tried. On servers like Brad’s RP staff members are encouraged to try and get people to donate. That is their main objective - not to fucking moderate the server. Not to mention that servers also practice some very predatory behaviours and advertisement by having a message about the /store command pop up in the chat every 20 or so fucking seconds, which is very annoying.

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The ability of a server to make profit has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal and popularity of said servers. These servers are nearly always full for a reason. People LOVE them. Thats why they work in the first place. If the majority of the community actually, as you say, hated these servers, they wouldve taken the alternatives.

You clearly have not played on any of them. I can tell you that people do go on these servers simply because they want to have fun with their friends for a day, and then move on to never return the day after, because the experience itself which P2W servers provide (talking about RP) are more often that not never original or fun enough for people to come back to actually play according to the server’s concept.

There are many reasons why servers fail that have nothing to do with P2W or Non-P2W aspects. Many smaller servers simply die out because they don’t have either as much publicity as the already established ones, or die to internal issues, like the owner getting bored, the project being abandoned, or the staff team or the playerbase becoming disinterested. I personally ran a decently popular Non-P2W server for 3 years and a half, and can tell you, that it is absolutely possible to gain notoriety without needing to make little kids pay 40 dollars to buy a million dollars worth of in game-currency, which, by the way, is one of the examples that was brought forward during both interviews with Nelson, and something which very often can cause entire server economies to collapse, not that their owners care all that much about it, as long as it’s still profitable for them.

THIS IS THE ENITE FUCKING POINT: You can make a profit, but that doesn’t mean you can completely disregard your server and its community!

If the majority of the community actually, as you say, hated these servers, they wouldve taken the alternatives.

There aren’t any! Basically all owners of popular servers run Pay-To-Win servers, and as of right now, there is no competition because of the sheer amount of publicity these servers have to both keep running and attracting new kids (and their mothers’ credit cards), which simply drowns out or disincourages people enough so not to try to take matters into their own hands.

Nelson’s goal with this is to block the issue at hand by punching directly at its source: the servers themselves. It would be extremely difficult to keep little kids who aren’t really the brightest when it comes to handling money from buying a lot of items from a server very very quickly (repeatable purchases, which is what Nelson wants to ban), so Nelson is simply cutting out the middle man and regulating things at the server management level.

Also, had you actually been reading most of what people link in this thread, you’d notice that, yes, most people do not fucking like P2W all that much, now, do they? There are only a handful of server owners and their staff here to try and convince Nelson to not go through with this idea, and their arguments have all been debunked by the community itself. Both on here, and during the Town Hall interview.

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Malviyn is one of the only reasonable and rational anti P2W person in this entire thread. Too many people are throwing around arguments that have no basis in facts, from some form of moral high ground, shaming people for making a profit from the added value they provide to the game.

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Thank you for calling me reasonable, but I am not so sure whether or not this is meant as in I am the only reasonable anti-P2W advocate, because I would have to disagree with that.

That said, too many people on the other side as me seem to be throwing around the same arguments all the time, which I had already debunked in this thread before, and further deconstructed during the town hall meeting with Nelson.

I’m not so sure if you are talking about people for or against P2W here, but if it’s the latter, I’d say we are more of a silent majority who could not hold in their frustration anymore, while the ones in favour of not doing anything are those who I would consider the screeching minority, made out mostly of big server owners who distanced themselves from the game and only care about profits, whom are only trying (and failing) to protect their interests.

I guess you could say I am the voice of the small / medium server owner, since I used to be one up until a few months ago (and at the same time also a veteran RP player), but I am not so sure whether everyone would agree with me taking that title for myself, and so, I won’t.

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In what way is this relevant at all? You realize bringing up politics on a thread like this will just do you more harm than good, right?

This is correct, I was invited to this group despite the Asahi Squadron’s previous subjugation of RA. This was due to ACK’s server owner making threats to somebody I knew. Raid wasn’t really all that great because we expected everyone to be roleplaying, but everybody was just already killing each other so nobody cared.

Also not very cool how several posters on this thread are cherry-picking small fragments of each other’s arguments and isolating the entire greater points presented by each other, pretending the greater ideas of said arguments and counter-arguments don’t exist. By using this form of discussion, you prove that you didn’t comprehend the majority of what a person said. This also creates an unending debate where people repeat the same arguments, only to have the greater scheme of their argument ignored. I know this because I’ve seen a similar outcome with the megathread that was the Gold DLC thread from 2016-17 (Steam Forums), which was ultimately locked after 1,400+ posts of repeating arguments.

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My team and I are working on a Server for a while now and I was wondering if the server is allowed to have following feature:

  • Currency exist and spawns on the map
  • Players are also able to buy currency directly from a webshop
  • Ingame Currency will only be used to either:
  1. Buy Skins from a ingame UI Shop
  2. Buy Skins from a ingame UI Marketplace that other players put their Skins for sale.

There will be no other option to spend your money on besides maybe Queue Bypassers/Reserved Slots. All Skins are modded guns that have a different texture (identical gun, just different look) no
vanilla Guns.

I am assuming this will count as Cosmetic-purchases only if im not wrong. But I am not sure how these “microtransactions” will be handled. Its being in the works since last year already and it would be a shame to waste that huge potential the server and its features has.

This is a big no-no for Nelson. Purchases which you can make more than once / Repeatable purchases are exactly what is going to be banned.

Everything else is fine.

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Why is this such a nasty thread.

I honestly cant be bothered to read 220 messages of which 90% are people pointing fingers at eachother. P2W is bad and some people are seemingly freaking out that countermeasures are getting implemented? These servers are exploiting (mostly) kids and now the server owners are here crying that they cant ask 50 dollars a month for their MVP+++ rank… Honestly?

This is great Nelson, please implement it in the next patch if possible

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Having paid advantages ruins the gameplay, that is a fact!

Making the game unfair is actually removing value! On the contrary, you can’t explain why making the game unfair and unfun “provides value”! :slightly_smiling_face:

donating to get cosmetics in return is not a paid advantage! therefore it is fine :slight_smile:

purchasss that provide an unfair experience, and be bought over and over, are the one’s being banned. Nelson has no reason to object to cowmetic microtransactions because that’s quite literally what mystery boxes are.

and half of it is me debunking terrible arguments on why a few rich goons should be allowed to ruin the gameplay experience for everyone. I agree with your conclusion! Remove P2W.