Tanks

sigh It’s that time again, where we talk about balancing tanks. Exciting right?

Anyways, we all know that Tanks are forces to be reckoned with on the battlefield, their sheer mass and firepower could wipe out squads in seconds, demolish buildings, and strike fear into anyone close enough to hear it.

So you might be asking yourself, “How the hell do we balance that? Tanks should just remain out of the game so we don’t have to balance it.”

However, there are ways to balance tanks, but it is quite tricky and does need tweaking as it is suggested, so let’s crack ths tough nut shall we?

First of all, lets talk about the basic tank we have in Unturned as of now,
image
Theoretically based off of the M1 Abrams, this tank leaves a lot to be desired.

  • It’s open compartments leave the Gunner and Driver open to enemy fire.
  • The Turret does not turn a full 360 degrees.
  • It cannot handle any bumps what so ever.
  • Immune to low cal weaponry but not the Turned.

These are the basic ones that need improvement from 3.x, I know there are many more, but I want to keep it simple.

Now, regarding the first one, this is pretty smart considering how the Tank should be balanced, in real life, the Tank used to be supported by the infantry (WWI) that is why they all moved so slow, to keep pace with the army. So logically, it makes sense that the Gunner and Driver are exposed, they need cover from other group members to actually make the Tank useful, except this is not WWI.

Now a remedy to this, is to have the Gunner inside the turret, but have him be able to only look through the scope which looks like this:

Now, you can see that this scope is pretty limiting, it has a very small FOV to balance out the fact that the Gunner is now in the Turret.

However, to take his spot on top of the Turret is the Commander. Now, I want the Commander to be here because of one reason, Third Person. Third Person, as we all know, has been broken for a while, and Third Person in Tanks has made them unbalanced; since the Driver and Gunner can see everything that is going on around them without the use of a Commander.

Now the Commander will be the third person (In a literal sense) on the Tank, since the Driver and Gunner cannot use third person. He should sit where the Gunner sits now, and uses Binoculars and Compasses to mark out where people are. Without him, the Driver and Gunner are effectively blind and can barely see a thing. To balance this, he will still sit unprotected by small arms fire, and will require coordination between the Driver and Gunner to not get him killed.

The Second issue is actually one I am alright with, it means that the Driver has to be careful and plan out his moves so he does not get flanked. The only thing I am not okay with, is that the Turret is way too fast, just simply make it have a turning speed, and the problem is solved.

The Third issue will also be remedied, as we will have better physics, so no need to talk about it.

The Last problem however is a tricky one, and brings into play lots of factors.

Currently, low cal weapons cannot destroy any part of the Tank, but they can shoot the Driver and Gunner; but high cal weapons can destroy the Tank quite easily, it only takes 7 shots from a Grizzly to destroy one.

To remedy this, high cal weapons cannot penetrate the Tank from the front, but only from the sides and rear, like this Tank:


Exposed sides and wheels present excellent opportunities for high cal weapons to penetrate the Tank, deal damage to it, and potentially kill crew.

As for the low cal weapons, I believe they should remain where they are, they can’t penetrate a tank, but they can kill crew by aiming for weak spots (Hatches, Driver slit).

However, what about the Turned? How come low cal weapons can’t even scratch a Tank’s paint job, but the Turned can reduce the Tank into buzzard bait, how can we fix the Turned in II?

Well, it’s simple, we just make it so the Turned deal no damage to the Tank, but they can de-track it. Meaning that if you plow enough Turned, eventually, they’ll end up in between your wheels and treads and will break the treads making you immobile. It could also be possible that a Mega could damage the Tank by also de-tracking it. (De-tracking also makes Landmines a possibility for ambushes)

Once a Track has been blown off for what ever reason, it requires a blowtorch, some metal, and time to repair it. (Maybe even a Carjack?)

Now onto items that are new for Tanks from 3.x.

The basic tank in Unturned 4.x I believe should be the M60.


As stated before, it has weak points (it’s side, rear, and wheels) making high cal weapons not just destroy a tank from any angle it shoots it at. It’s open treads also make it so that the Turned can also de-track the tank making it immobile.

As you can also see from the photo, the Commander should sit somewhere where the guy is on top and the Driver should remain where he is currently, just with a closed hatch.

For all of these notes, and crew members needed, does that mean that Tanks are useless in Singleplayer?

Not at all, you just have to play smart with it; use your tank as an ambush, or maybe, use it as crowd control.

Now I know I did not mention everything about a Tank, I know some of you are afraid that by expanding upon how Tanks work I am transforming the game into Arma III. However, I just simply want Tanks to be more functional in Unturned but also not overpowered, and that balance is tricky, and I have undoubtedly missed something balance wise in Tanks. Here’s where you come in, I have not been able to come up with solutions for the following items about Tanks, such as:

  • HMGs on the Tank actually functioning

  • Smoke Grenades

  • Ammunition rarity and how it should work

@anon24515308 All ammunition should capable of being broken down into materials to craft other ammunition, that way more powerful ammunition isn’t just balanced by how rarely it spawns, but also by how much of a material investment each shot is.

Thoughts?

7 Likes

Are tanks really even overpowered? Their only strength is the cannon on it, which in actual combat can be dodged super easily and is pretty rare already, the only actual good thing about the cannon is that its explosive and really strong for base raids, but then again why not just bring a rocket launcher because irc they have the same explosive damage. In general I feel like tanks are really weak and sit in a weird place in the game as in vanilla its just a vehicle you have to flex on people, ive only ever effectively used one during a live base raid on some people.

I really like the detracking idea for the turned, thats the best form of balance for a tank ive seen suggestion wise, and the damage decided by side makes sense.

Not gonna lie though the best way to balance a tank is to not have it in the game, its so difficult to balance because if you make it too weak the lack of mobility and the vulnerability that goes with it makes it useless, especially when the main gun is something you can just find sitting around in ranger areas, but if you make it too strong then you have clans running around in a massive indestructible killing machine. You made some decent points, but honestly in what I hope will be a survival games I dont want to see tanks very much.

All ammunition should capable of being broken down into materials to craft other ammunition, that way more powerful ammunition isn’t just balanced by how rarely it spawns, but also by how much of a material investment each shot is.

2 Likes

I think both interpretations are valid, any point on the spectrum, whould strangely enough make me happy.

Odd.

just I’ll miss easily meaning a tank by myself, I have a small gripe upon that, but the gripe is not that valid sadly

I understand the fact that everyone deems Tanks to be OP when they are really not, I just wanted a way to make them actually usable, but also balanced.

Also yes, it does have the same damage as the rocket launcher, but it has a much bigger explosion radius.

2 Likes

Give me a T-35 Model 1939 with a 76mm gun in a main turret that has a coaxial, rear mounted, and AA machine gun; two smaller turrets with a 45mm gun and another coax 7.62 each; and finally two smaller turrets with machine guns.

Not our fault that we had the only 5-turreted tank to ever be in production.

4 Likes

Trying to turn that would be hell

3 Likes

I have many thoughts about this… However, it’ll take me pretty long:

Old tank. We all want realism and balance, but you can’t sacrifice that much by placing old tanks all the way around in a modern (yet apocaliptic) evironment.

And for that same reasons, there’s all these thoughts:

  • Commanders doesn’t have to be exposed on modern tanks (like the M1 Abrams).
    • Knowing how Unturned community deals with (almost) every single problem, it’ll be enough to snipe the commander away if placed there.
    • A secondary HMG gunner could take the place you’re suggesting for the commander, which could also serve as a look-out (OP? If exposed to enemy gunfire, nah).
  • Drivers count with periscopes to see outside of the tank and computer systems to detect enemies and/or obstacles. However, a wisely limited FOV through periscope for the sake of balance is ok.

Again: that’s an old tank. For modern tanks, vulnerable sections are the top, rear and bottom. Anyway, it should take plenty shots of high cal. weapons to damage those effectively, unless as in 3.x.

And about overall damage a tank can take, it should be inhabilited depending on which part takes more severe damage:

  • Main weapon (cannon): rotates slower. Unable to shoot if severe damage.
  • Secondary weapon (HMG): unable to give anti-personnel support fire.
  • Caterpillars (wheels): unable to move.
  • Engine: moves slower. Stops and/or sets on fire if severe damage.
  • Fuel deposit: can set on fire. Explodes if severe damage.

There’s no way a low cal. weapon can damage a tank nor its crew, unless the tank can be somehow hijacked shooting/nading crew from the hatch.

There had to be shit-tons of turned then, because as far as I know, a tank can drive over and totally crush average civilian cars.

These at last, I think that shouldn’t be included, as IRL they stopped its usage because of fire risk.

3 Likes

theoretically, it could be set whenever, but the eaglefire kind of sets the time period.

That’s different, as some antique guns are still used by civilians, but old tanks are mostly in museums or for army exhibits only. I set my ideas taking in mind that players will find standard issue tanks used by armed forces on the depicted areas resembled on the maps, just as it is in Unturned 3.x, where there’s only 1 type of tank (standard) for each zone.

Yeah true, but it contained all of the proper items I think would balance a Tank in II, exposed sides and rear. I guess if I really had to choose a modern Tank in II it would still stay the same and be the M1 Abrams.

Commanders doesn’t have to be exposed on modern tanks (like the M1 Abrams).
Knowing how Unturned community deals with (almost) every single problem, it’ll be enough to snipe the commander away if placed there.

I was thinking about it, that the Commander could take cover inside the hatch and have a limited view range, but then people would just permanently stay inside the hatch, making it impossible to kill them.

A secondary HMG gunner could take the place you’re suggesting for the commander, which could also serve as a look-out (OP? If exposed to enemy gunfire, nah).

I didn’t include this as I thought it could be OP but I didn’t know how to balance it. However, since you suggested that it could be shot at, and disabled, that could work.

Drivers count with periscopes to see outside of the tank and computer systems to detect enemies and/or obstacles. However, a wisely limited FOV through periscope for the sake of balance is ok.

Yeah, I didn’t want to include all of the complex systems and periscopes as people might think I am turning this game into Arma III.

Main weapon (cannon): rotates slower. Unable to shoot if severe damage.
Secondary weapon (HMG): unable to give anti-personnel support fire.
Caterpillars (wheels): unable to move.
Engine: moves slower. Stops and/or sets on fire if severe damage.
Fuel deposit: can set on fire. Explodes if severe damage.

I actually completely forgot vehicles in II are going to have modular damage. I like all of these, except for the Caterpillars, it should be the treads taking the damage, not the wheels, a Tank can operate missing a wheel, it can’t when it is missing a tread. Unless, the wheel damaged is a drive sprocket, it which case that would work just fine.

There’s no way a low cal. weapon can damage a tank nor its crew, unless the tank can be somehow hijacked shooting/nading crew from the hatch.

Fair enough, it should be restricted to only High cal weapons. However, shooting and or nading the crew from a hatch is impossible, all tank hatches have locks on them that only work from the inside, so there is no way a person could jump up onto a tank and nade it, however, this could be changed because of balance reasons.

There had to be shit-tons of turned then, because as far as I know, a tank can drive over and totally crush average civilian cars.

Yeah, okay maybe that idea was not the best, but I still like that Megas could still possibly de-track it.

1 Like

Thanks, I wanna go play war thunder now.

1 Like

First, remember that the top of a tank is vulnerable, so the hatch locks may be destroyed. In second place but not less important: remember we’re talking about a game, so it can be possible, think about it.

2 Likes

Truth. I have a Finnish M39 rifle.

Yes, the top of the tank is vulnerable, but it would take at least a rocket I would say to blow open a hatch.
Take a look at this hatch for example:image
This is one thick hatch, and would take a massive amount of force to blow it open; and not to mention the locking mechanism is only on the inside of the tank. The driver in this case, hops into the vehicle, pulls down the hatch, slides it right and flips a lever to lock it.

But yeah, it is a game so maybe placing a sticky grenade on a hatch would blow it open leaving the crew exposed

Also heres another perspective on the Hatch:

Balance > Gameplay.

All “op” items and vehicles need a early game counter and a late game counter. Late game would probably be rocket launchers and the like, with an early game counter being the weak hatch. It would also be really satisfying to kobe a nade into a tank and kill some people. IMO it should usually be open, or atleast shouldnt automatically close when someone isnt in the top commander/gunner seat

balancing a rare end-game thing that requires ammo which is twice rarer than top-tier sniper rifle is just dumb

tanks, however, gonna need hmgs and maybe systems such as smoke launcher

What does rarity have to do with balance?

3 Likes

first, it limits amount of users, next, it meant to pervent instakills in a 225 maner where actual danger presence was created by deadly guns when 3.0 just have a lot of dakka dakka and innacurate guns

anyway tanks are used in sandbox mess and events over than in a survival gameplay